"God would know that they could never build a tower high enough to reach him."
I asked my bible teacher that question when she went over the story, she kinda laughed.
But she answered this way, she said, "Those humans could have accomplished it if they wanted to; they could have certainly reached the sky." Also, I do not think those humans were building that tower to get closer to God. They were being greedy with power. They are supposed to be humble to their creator don't you think?
Like what if your father would set some rules, but you disobey and try to make your own rules right in front of his nose. You're father would probably punish you too.

Oh and the story of Noah, if you actually follow the instructions on how to build the ark, you'd build an ark that never tips over! It's been proven!

"So when all the people living in the Americas and other lands unknown to Christians were being sent to hell because they didn't know Jesus, it was God's fault"
I personally do not believe in hell.
God is supposed to be LOVE. And the bible says that once you die you are unconscious of everything. You don't feel. You don't think. So if you die and go to hell and suffer pain for all eternity it contradicts that theory. There are many quotes from the bible that I can show you if you want.
Besides, we wouldnt punish our kids when they do something bad by burning their hand! and if we do we get punished by the police! What would make anyone think that God will do that for all eternity.
Instead he says he will make us pay for our sins by dying. If we go against his word we will just die, the end. We will not go to the paradise he is promising us.


Also, I do not think God was jealous of humans. Why would a perfect spirit be jealous of imperfect humans. They were going against his word. They were uniting to go against his word. If my children were uniting to go against me I would certainly separate them. Or wouldnt you?

Also, God makes it possible for Christians to learn other languages so we can go preach his word. You'd be surprised at how many people are being converted to Christianity all over the world. Even in communist China. Or in Russia. Or in the deep parts of Latin America and Africa!

Also, He will NOT send people to hell or deny them paradise for not learning the bible. It isn't there fault is it?
You would not punish your kid for something he did, that you do not want him to do, and he did not know you did not want him to do.

That is why, but this part I'm still studying so I do not too much, there will be the great tribulation ( when the goverment will turn their backs on religion), and Armageddon, and after there will be a 1000 year period were the people who did not get a chance to learn God's word will get a chance to learn about it. Those people are going to be ones that God sees that have a heart to listen to his word. Any others who knew about him and denied will just die.

Also, Nim'rod wanted to make himself king over ALL the people. That is why he wanted to keep them united.
When we know God is the one who ruled.
So his intentions were not really noble.
and God wanted the people to live across the world. He wanted them to inhabit all the world.
They were being selfish because they wanted honor for themselves.
They were forgetting the honor that God deserves for creating them.

well you know the scriptures but I'll put them anyways.
Genesis 10:1, 8-10, 11:1-9

@whereisichi - 

Thanks for the comments! Here's my reply to what you and your teacher said.

"Those humans could have accomplished it if they wanted to; they could have certainly reached the sky."

It all depends on what you mean by "reach[ing] the sky". I guess you could say the Sears Tower reaches the sky, but there wasn't the technology back then to build something that tall. And even if they could have built something as tall as the Sears Tower, it still doesn't reach God or heaven. I've been to the top of the Sears Tower, and I didn't see God. So there was no way they would reach heaven by building the tower.

"I do not think those humans were building that tower to get closer to God. They were being greedy with power. They are supposed to be humble to their creator don't you think? [...] They were uniting to go against his word."

The verses don't say that. It doesn't say anywhere that the people were doing something God told them not to do. If this story is so important, why isn't it explained clearly?? But for argument's sake, let's say that even though it doesn't say it, that humans were being too greedy, or too proud, or disobeying God somehow.

Couldn't God have just tried talking to humans, instead of destroying their tower, spreading people all around the globe, and giving them languages so they couldn't understand each other?

Why should people be humble to God? Especially in the Old Testament, he doesn't show them love or kindness very often, like a real father should. He mostly just punishes them. It seems like God (in the Old Testament at least) always acts violently: destroy this, kill that. Is it any surprise humans are violent if that's how God is?

"If you actually follow the instructions on how to build the ark, you'd build an ark that never tips over! It's been proven!"

Was this a scientific article that said this, or was it something you heard in church? I haven't seen anything trying to prove Noah's ark was real except for fundamentalist websites (even a lot of liberal Christians seem to say it's just a story).

But even if the boat itself could be built, it had to have 2 (or 7) of every animal in it, plus all the food to feed them for the whole time they were in the ark. The boat couldn't fit everything in it, and it would have been impossible for that few humans to keep that many animals alive and to keep them from killing or eating each other. It just doesn't make sense.

"God makes it possible for Christians to learn other languages so we can go preach his word."

Yes, but it still means that millions of people died before Christians made it over to these people to convert them. Wouldn't a better plan have been not to spread them all over the world and make them speak different languages?

"I personally do not believe in hell. God is supposed to be LOVE."

I don't believe in hell either, but Jesus did: he talks about hell several times in the Bible. "But whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22) "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), etc.

I know there are verses that also say that when you die, you're just dead. (Mostly in the Old Testament.) But that contradicts what Jesus said, both about reward for people who believe in him, and punishment for the wicked. So Jesus changed the rules and now hell exists, or what the Old Testament and New Testament say contradict each other. Either way, it's not clear. If God wants us to live with him forever, why wouldn't he explain clearly what happens after death?

"There will be the great tribulation[...] and Armageddon, and after there will be a 1000 year period were the people who did not get a chance to learn God's word will get a chance to learn about it. Those people are going to be ones that God sees that have a heart to listen to his word. Any others who knew about him and denied will just die.

That doesn't sound like God is love to me. So God will cause a great time of troubles, where people will suffer a lot, and then if people still don't believe in him, then he'll just let them die. If a human father caused his children to suffer on purpose and then just let them die, even though he could easily save them, wouldn't you consider that cruel?

All God has to do is appear to us and tell us that he's real. Why doesn't he just do that? He doesn't have to cause humanity all sorts of pain and suffering.

About Nimrod, I looked into it and I see some people think, as you said, that Nimrod ordered the construction of the Tower of Babel. This isn't said in the Bible though (if that's the case, why doesn't the Bible just tell us so?).

But if it's true, then why not punish Nimrod instead of all of humanity?!? Doesn't seem very fair to me.

I was reading some stories on the bible the other day and it was kinda scary...like it had some lines that said, "see what happens when you don't listen to God, you die." I was especially afraid when Lot's wife looked back to the burning city and she turned into salt.
I was just like what???!!!
I was scared
but then that is why we have Jesus. He knows how hard it is to resist temptation. He, of course, is free of sin, but he was human. He knows what we go through. So he'll be there when we are judged. He can relate to us a bit more.

But with the story of hell...
Jesus does say those lines on Mark 9:47, 48 and Matthew 25:41,46
But what does that really mean???

So many bibles use the word hell, while other bibles use the word Gehenna, coming from the Hebrew word Geh Hinnom' which means Valley of Hinnom. This place was used as a place for child sacrifice (Which God HATED). This place was then called the "valley of slaughter" where "the carcasses of this people" would lie unburied. (Jeremiah 7:30-34, in the King James Version). Jehovah then said that this place will become a place for the disposal of dead bodies. Those bodies that were burned there were bodies of horrible criminals.This place was constantly burning.

In Isaiah 66:24 it says, "And they will actually go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that were transgressing against me; for the very worms upon them will not die and their fire itself will not be extinguished and they must become something repulsive to all flesh."
Jesus and his listeners knew that Isaiah referred to those dead bodies that did not deserve a burial.

What did Jesus mean by "everlasting fire"?

On Matthew 25:41 it says: "Then he will say, in turn, to those on his left. Be on YOUR way from me, YOU who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels."
Note: it says that it says it is reserved for the Devil and his angels.
BUT - Can you burn spirit creatures?

In Matthew 25: 32,33 it says: And all the nations will be gathered before him and he will separate people one form another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will put the sheep on the right hand, but the goats on his left."

So when Matthew 25:41 talks about those on the left he is talking about the goats.

What do you notice from Matthew 25: 32,33?
He is talking figuratively, isn't he?
So it is possible that the everlasting fire is figurative too?
So then, What DOES it mean?
It means eternal death.
More prove:
On Revelation 20:10 it says, " And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
If this were true, then the Devil would have to be alive to feel tormented for all eternity.
But the bible says that Jesus will "destroy him" on Hebrews 2:14 (KJ)

So then the eternal fire, or the lake of fire, has to represent the second death.
What is the second death?
It is the one you cannot come back from. When we die the first time, we can be resurrected. But the second death refers to one that you can never come back to life. That death means you're finished and erased from all existence.
But it says TORMENT right?
well on Matthew 8:29 and Luke 8:30, 31 in the King James Version, it also talks about Torment.
"Art thou come hither to torment us before the time?" The Demons are crying out to Jesus in this verse. But from the context we can tell "torment" is used to replace the word "restrain".

So the lake of fire and the everlasting fire have to mean eternal death.




Noah's story is actually told in many parts of the world. It's even told in the Koran.
And haven't you heard the fear of global warming, how it is melting the glaciers.
What happens they melt. They will cover cities like New York and Tokyo. So there is still enough water to flood many cities.
and 71% of the world is filled with water!
The ark taht Noah build was GIGANTIC.
It was longer than a football field and as tall as a 3 story building.
It was covered in tar from the outside as well as the inside.
It took 50 years to build!
He had to fill it up with a whole year supply of food for his family and for the animals of course.

Well on Genesis 6:15,16 it says, "And this is how you will make it: 300 cubits the length of the ark, 50 cubits its width, and 30 cubits its height. You will make a tso'har [roof; or, window] for the ark, and you will complete it to the extent of a cubit upward, and the entrance of the ark you will put in its side; you will make it with a lower [story], a second [story], and a third."
The ark only had to float so it has a different design from the boats we have now.
There are a lot of numbers and explanations involved so I'm not going to get too much into it.
But I'm getting my information from the January 2007 issue of AWAKE! from the Jehovah's Witnesses.


I'll talk try to comment you tomorrow on Armageddon and Nimrod. :D
I get all my information from watchtowers and Awake.
I'm barely have a year studying the bible!
So I do not know too much yet

@whereisichi - 

Thanks for your comments. I too am learning about the Bible (I've read a lot of it, but never in order), so I hope this is as interesting for you as it is for me.

I was especially afraid when Lot's wife looked back to the burning city and she turned into salt.

I agree that a lot of the stories in the Bible are scary. I used to remember being scared sometimes as a kid about God being angry at me. It looks like the story of Lot and his wife (who apparently wasn't important enough to be given a name in the story) is coming up, so I'll think about this more soon.

I was scared but then that is why we have Jesus. He knows how hard it is to resist temptation. He, of course, is free of sin, but he was human. He knows what we go through. So he'll be there when we are judged. He can relate to us a bit more.

I read a little bit about Jehovah's Witnesses (since you mentioned this), and I see that Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus is not God, but rather he was created by God. This is a different concept than what I was taught, but it still doesn't explain the situation completely.

Why would God (Jehovah) need Jesus to "relate" to us better? Isn't God all-knowing and all-powerful? It doesn't make sense that God would act one way in the Old Testament and then another way in the New Testament. What could Jesus have told God that he didn't already know? It doesn't make sense.

You make some interesting arguments about hell. Part of the Bible is that it is confusing and contradictory, so it is pretty easy sometimes to find verses that say what you want it to say. If the Bible were the true word of God, I think it would just clearly spell things out for us. I don't see why God would want us to try to figure out what goats, sheep, and lakes of fire are symbolic of. It just confuses people. And this still doesn't answer why God can't just forgive people instead of letting them die forever (which you call second death, it sounds like). If God is all-powerful and all-knowing, I think it should be his responsibility to convince us that he exists, not our responsibility to try to read between the lines and figure it out.

You mentioned child sacrifice. Did you know that God actually supports it in the Bible? Besides the story of Abraham almost sacrificing his son because God told him to, there's also Judges 11:29-40, where a father burns her daughter. I was surprised when I first read this story. It doesn't say that God got angry or punished Jephthah for burning his daughter, so God must not hate child sacrifice that much. I'm sure if God really thought it was bad, there would have been room somewhere to say that what Jephthah did was horrible. But it doesn't say this, so either God thinks burning daughters is fine, or else it's just a story that people made up when they (wrongly) thought there was a God who wanted them to kill and burn things all the time to please him. We've grown past thinking things like this, fortunately!

I haven't forgotten to write back... I've just been a bit busy with studying for Finals
I will try to answer to the better of my ability
but I really recommend a bible study with the Jehovah's Witnesses
they will answer your questions a lot better than I can and they will not bombard you with information the way I'm doing
instead they will take it one step at a time
you can choose to disagree or agree after your study.
The study is free too and you can have it on the phone if you are not comfortable bringing them into your home.

"If God is all-powerful and all-knowing, I think it should be his responsibility to convince us that he exists, not our responsibility to try to read between the lines and figure it out."

Well before Jesus, God did have contact with his people.
Yet the people chose to disobey him and worship false gods.
his final way of trying to reach for his people was through Jesus. So he did try to win us over. I don't think its more of Jesus telling God something he doesn't know.

Well let me put it this way, if you were to be judged right now, who would you rather be judged by, someone who has never been tempted, someone who is completely perfect and almighty. Or would you rather be judged by someone who has gone through something we have. Someone who has experienced living in a place where Satan is putting bad thoughts into the people. He knows how hard it is for us to resist it. It was hard for him that he was perfect imagine how hard it is for us that we aren't.
He had to ask for his Father's help during the whole time. He had to keep praying to protect him from Satan's clutches. And in the end he succeeded. He didn't fall to temptation.

Also, Jesus was sent as a ransom.

Because Adam had a perfect human life and had free will.
But when he disobeyed God, he was condemned to death, and he lost his perfect life and the perfect life of his offspring.
In Romans 7:14 it explains how Adam "sold" himself and his offspring into slavery of sin and death.
and Romans 5:12 explains how sin and death entered the world.
The ransom was God's way of rescuing us.
But what is a ransom?
1. The price paid to bring about a release or to buy something back.
2. The price that covers, or pays, the cost of something. Which is the same as if you break something and have to pay an amount that covers everything.

The ransom is good for us because it allows:
1. The forgiveness of sins (Colossians 1:13,14)
2. A clean conscience before God - this way we can speak to Jehovah freely (Hebrews 9:13,14
3. The hope of everlasting life on a paradise Earth. Romans 6:23

So that is why Jesus is send to us.
Not because he can tell Jehovah something he doesn't know already.
But I think I went out of subject a little bit.

As for the child sacrifice you mentioned in Judges, I asked my teacher and she said she will research it and I'll come back with an answer.
Also, about the bible being so confusing, I think that with studying it a lot, things begin to make more and more sense.
I really don't have an answer for that either.

"I agree that a lot of the stories in the Bible are scary. I used to remember being scared sometimes as a kid about God being angry at me."
So even if we are both scared of some of the stories in the bible we can see that because of Jesus' sacrifice we can approach God with a clean conscious.
We don't have to worry about him turning us into salt.

So about the account on Judges you were talking about.
She didn't actually die.
I think its more on a lesson on be careful what you promise.
But God did let her come back to her father.
Well my teacher is going to send me an article on the whole thing and I'll make sure to share it with you.

You don't have to apologize for not replying faster, it's been busy for me, too.

Just a couple of quick comments for now, and I'll reply more later.

"If you were to be judged right now, who would you rather be judged by, someone who has never been tempted, someone who is completely perfect and almighty. Or would you rather be judged by someone who has gone through something we have."

I don't think we should have to pick. Who says that humanity needs to be judged?

"It was hard for him that he was perfect imagine how hard it is for us that we aren't.[...]And in the end he succeeded. He didn't fall to temptation."

It doesn't sound very amazing to me that Jesus, a supposedly perfect being, didn't sin. His temptation and suffering must have been nearly nothing compared to ours. He was already guaranteed heaven. It's like studying for a final when you know you already have an A+ in the class no matter what happens.

"Adam had a perfect human life and had free will. But when he disobeyed God, he was condemned to death, and he lost his perfect life and the perfect life of his offspring.

Would a perfect being disobey God? He must not have been created perfect then, apparently.

In any case, Adam allegedly did something wrong, so all humans are condemned forever. This doesn't sound very fair to me. If I steal a car, do my great-great-great-grandchildren deserve to be punished forever for me stealing a car?

"Jesus was sent as a ransom. [...] The ransom was God's way of rescuing us."

The word "ransom" is interesting, and it looks like it used commonly among Jehovah's Witnesses. You gave a couple of examples for ransoms, but I think the thing that most people associate with ransoms is hostage takers. If Jesus is the ransom paid to God, this basically makes God out to be no better than a kidnapper! It's like God telling humanity, "I took away your eternal life. I will give it back to you only if you pay me a ransom."

But even this situation doesn't fit exactly, because normally kidnappers want money or riches. God doesn't want this, he wants Jesus' blood. It's like God said, "I took away your eternal life. I will give it back to you only if you kill Jesus." This makes no sense to me.

"The ransom is good for us because it allows:
1. The forgiveness of sins (Colossians 1:13,14)
2. A clean conscience before God - this way we can speak to Jehovah freely (Hebrews 9:13,14
3. The hope of everlasting life on a paradise Earth. Romans 6:23"

1) So Jesus had to die before God could forgive our sins? I thought God could do anything he wanted to do. Why was God forced to send Jesus off to be killed just so he could forgive us? Couldn't he just forgive us without Jesus dying?

2) Why would we have a clean conscience? We all continue to sin. If all humans guilty of original sin because of Adam and Eve eating the fruit, and on top of that we are all guilty of killing Jesus, I would think we could never approach God with a clean conscience.

3) An all-powerful god could recreate paradise immediately. If God really had to get a ransom first, then what's he waiting for? Jesus died almost 2000 years ago now. Why must humans have to wait for this all to happen?

"So about the account on Judges you were talking about. She didn't actually die. [...] But God did let her come back to her father.

If you read the verses, this isn't correct. The daughter is killed as a burnt offering. Here are direct quotes from the New International Version from Judges 30-39

Jephthah made a vow to the LORD : "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering. [...]

"When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! [...]

"When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, 'Oh! My daughter! You have made me miserable and wretched, because I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break.' [...] After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed.

This is one time the Bible is clear. He vowed to burn up the first thing he saw when he got home. The first thing was his daughter. The Bible says he keeps his promise, which can only mean that he killed his daughter, right?

You would think God would have told Jephthah not to kill his daughter, to save her life!
But considering God sent Jesus to be killed, I guess it's not too surprising.

Maybe the reason is related to what you mentioned: God just can't imagine what it's like to be human. Dying may not seem important or painful for an eternal being. It's not good then that he's judging us...